138 1 2 STATE OF NEW YORK COUNTY OF MADISON TOWN BOARD and VILLAGE BOARD OF CAZENOVIA - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - In the Matter of CAZENOVIA PRESERVATION FOUNDATION, PIONEER CAZENOVIA CO., LLC & RALPH C. STOWELL - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 9 SECOND PUBLIC HEARING in the above matter conducted at the Cazenovia Municipal Building, 90 Albany Street, Cazenovia, New York on November 21, 2006 at 7:00 p.m. 12 PRESENT FOR TOWN BOARD: 13 Supervisor LIZ MORAN (Councilor Jack Altmeyer - Not Present) Councilor KRISTI ANDERSEN Councilor CAROL SCHOCH Councilor PATRICK RACE Town Clerk LINDA MATHER Town Attorney JOHN R. LANGEY, ESQ. 17 PRESENT FOR VILLAGE BOARD: 18 Mayor THOMAS DOUGHERTY Trustee DAVID VREDENBURGH Trustee PAUL BROOKS Trustee TROY WAFFNER Village Clerk LAURA HERBERT ABERNATHY Village Attorney MARK GORIS, ESQ. FOR THE APPLICANT: (Pioneer) David Norcross and Jed Schneider 24 Reported by: 25 JOHN F. DRURY, CSR, RPR Court Reporter 671-1081 139 1 2 INDEX TO SPEAKERS 3 WITNESS PAGE 4 JOHN LANGEY (Attorney) 142 JIM EVANS (CPF) 145 5 DAVID NORCROSS (Pioneer) 150/161/163 ROB CONNOR 154 & 247 6 LAURA MILLER 159 & 231 PRINGLE SYMONDS (CPF) 160/181/203 7 WILLIAM LaROSE 162 8 RUSS BROWNBACK 164 JED SCHNEIDER (Pioneer) 165 9 SPARKY CHRISTAKOS 172 & 232 RICHARD HUBBARD 185 10 DOROTHY RIESTER 187 11 MICHAEL SULLIVAN 191 FRED JUNG 195 12 RALPH STOWELL 203 MATT JUDGE 206 13 CLAUDIA ST. JOHN 212 & 246 14 WENDY MARSH 216 JIM MISCO 225 15 DOUG SHEPARD 226 TED BARTLETT 228 16 EDDY GREEN 238 17 ANNE HARTT 244 PETER KING 244 18 MAYOR DOUGHERTY 247 ROGER DEMUTH 249 19 MANO KANE (phonetic) 250 20 21 22 23 24 25 140 1 Introductions 2 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: Welcome, this is 3 a continuation of the public hearing on 4 the request for annexation before the 5 joint Cazenovia Town Board and 6 Cazenovia Village Board. Welcome, 7 thank you, I hope everybody had a 8 chance to sign in. 9 For tonight I'm first going to 10 introduce my Town Board and then ask 11 Mayor Dougherty to introduce his 12 Village Board. With us tonight we have 13 Councilor Kristi Andersen, Councilor 14 Carol Schoch, Councilor Pat Race, Jack 15 Altmeyer is out of town, and our Town 16 Clerk Linda Mather. We also have our 17 attorney for the town John Langey. We 18 have also with us tonight the court 19 stenographer (court reporter), Mr. John 20 Drury. 21 MAYOR DOUGHERTY: Thank you, Liz. 22 I'm Tom Dougherty, Mayor of Cazenovia. 23 To my right is Dave Vredenburgh, he's 24 the Deputy Mayor, Trustee Paul Brooks, 25 Trustee Troy Waffner, and Village Clerk 141 1 Supervisor 2 Laura Herbert Abernathy. Missing from 3 tonight's activities, a gentleman who 4 is also out of town is Curt Wheeler, 5 Trustee Curt Wheeler is not with us 6 tonight, he's in Iraq and we wish him a 7 speedy and safe trip to Iraq and speedy 8 safe return to Cazenovia. Also like to 9 introduce Mark Goris. Mark is going to 10 be acting as our attorney this evening. 11 Jim Stokes couldn't be here. That's 12 it, thank you. 13 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: Thank you. Well 14 the purpose of tonight's hearing is to 15 receive additional public comments both 16 written and verbal on the proposed 17 annexation. So before we open it up we 18 have a few issues that we would like to 19 discuss and speakers who are going to 20 address the group. 21 First of all, we have gotten, we, I 22 say we collectively, me and other 23 members of the Town Board, the Town 24 Clerk, there's been a lot of e-mails 25 and questions and phone calls about the 142 1 Town Attorney 2 relationship between the moratorium 3 that the town currently has in place on 4 development along the Route 20 5 corridor, which is the Route 20 from 6 the village line east to the Town of 7 Nelson line, and this annexation 8 request. So I've asked John Langey, 9 our attorney, to speak briefly to that 10 issue. 11 ATTORNEY LANGEY: Can everyone hear 12 me okay? The issue with the moratorium, 13 the town passed the moratorium a couple 14 months ago, and the moratorium related 15 to land use and zoning approvals. Land 16 use and zoning approvals, which are 17 area variance, special use permits and 18 subdivisions. That moratorium is in 19 place and covers town lands. So 20 anybody that also happens to be along 21 the Route 20 corridor, which is 22 important to know. This application 23 for annexation is also on the Route 20 24 corridor. 25 Questions have come up, why this 143 1 Town Attorney 2 annexation application is allowed to go 3 forward? Because the moratorium does 4 not and cannot under New York State law 5 apply to annexations. An annexation is 6 a legislative function by a legislative 7 body, your Town Board and Village Board 8 of Trustees. The zoning approvals and 9 the other approvals that have the 10 moratorium are more in the nature of 11 the Zoning Board of Appeals, the 12 Planning Board and in some certain 13 instances the Town Board on site plan 14 approvals. But none of that happens to 15 apply to this situation. 16 So we have had a number of 17 questions about the moratorium. And 18 the short answer is it does not apply 19 to the annexation. 20 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: Thank you, John. 21 I'd also like to briefly address a 22 process question that has come up to me 23 as well about is this - and the concern 24 is we only have the annexation hearing 25 open for ten days, is that really 144 1 Supervisor 2 adequate time for the community to 3 gather their thoughts and comment on 4 this proposed project? And the answer 5 is, this is not the last opportunity 6 for the community to comment. I think 7 we touched on this at our first opening 8 session of this hearing last week, 9 where the annexation hearing is 10 specific to the annexation. If the 11 annexation is approved then the 12 applicant has indicated that they will 13 apply to the village for a change in 14 zone. That will also be a public 15 process. 16 Following that, if that is approved 17 and the project moves forward there 18 will be additional public comment 19 associated with site plan review and 20 Village Board approval. So I wanted to 21 answer that question, it's also 22 something that I heard quite a few 23 times over the course of this past week. 24 Next I'd like to recognize Jim 25 Evans from CPF, who has asked for an 145 1 Evans (CPF) 2 opportunity to address the gathering, 3 and we have tonight a microphone 4 courtesy of my son, Rocky, so let's 5 hope it works. 6 JIM EVANS: We have copies of these 7 to provide you folks after the meeting. 8 This letter is submitted in support of 9 the pending annexation petition of 10 Ralph Stowell, Pioneer Realty, and the 11 Cazenovia Preservation Foundation. 12 CPF entered into its agreement with 13 Pioneer only after careful, painstaking 14 consideration and detailed negotiations. 15 We strongly believe the proposed 16 annexation is in the public interest 17 for the following reasons, stated as 18 briefly as possible: 19 First, under the proposal, CPF 20 would retain ownership of about 70 21 acres of the former 109 acre former 22 Ambrose property, or about 65 percent. 23 The proposal would permit CPF to 24 preserve 800 feet of its current 1,200 25 feet of frontage on Route 20 as forever 146 1 Evans (CPF) 2 green. 3 The proposal would permit CPF to 4 maintain two-thirds of the front meadow 5 as forever green - the future site of 6 the Enders house, and if structurally 7 sound, the Enders barn - and leave the 8 entire wooded area standing and intact, 9 preserving scenic character and visual 10 impact. 11 Because we are not asking that the 12 eastern portion of the Ambrose property 13 be annexed, CPF will be retaining 14 property running all the way from 15 Fenner Road to Route 20 that will 16 remain in the Town, it will not go into 17 the Village. This should effectively 18 create a firewall, preventing any 19 further eastward annexation on the 20 north side of the Route 20 and the 21 south side of Fenner Road. 22 Under the Pioneer proposal, CPF 23 will save the Enders house, listed on 24 the National Register of Historic 25 Places. Resited to the east on the 147 1 Evans (CPF) 2 front meadow, it will be resold 3 (subject to CPF's restrictive covenants) 4 to create a new more valuable tax 5 parcel, and showcase traditional 6 architecture at the entrance to the 7 Village. The establishment of the 8 Enders homestead is the only improvement 9 that will ever be permitted on the two- 10 thirds of the front meadow we are 11 retaining. In the event a clear 12 preference were to arise against 13 locating the Enders house on the meadow, 14 it could be in fact moved elsewhere and 15 our two-thirds of the meadow left 16 completely open. 17 Any sale of land to Pioneer by CPF 18 will be subject to restrictive covenants 19 that will run with the land. 20 It's important to note that the 21 proposed supermarket is one-quarter the 22 size of the big box. The total 23 commercial development proposed is one- 24 half the size of the big box. Elaborate 25 screening is proposed, and note that 148 1 Evans (CPF) 2 you can see from the map there are 3 ample opportunities for screening any 4 commercial development from the east by 5 CPF on its property that we would be 6 retaining. 7 Pioneer proposes maintaining ample 8 area as open, wooded and permeable 9 lawns. There will be no, virtually no 10 impermeable surfaces on the 70 acres 11 retained by CPF. We believe the impact 12 of the proposal on surface water will 13 be minor relative to the whole property. 14 Commercial development of the 15 Stowell and Enders property is almost 16 inevitable. The Pioneer proposal would 17 result in the design being unified and 18 well-planned rather than haphazard and 19 slapdish. 20 Pioneer's plans are subject to on- 21 going design review and approval by CPF. 22 From the first, CPF has seen the 23 Ambrose property as an opportunity to 24 create a model for future development - 25 this is residential development I 149 1 Evans (CPF) 2 should say - different from the typical 3 automobile-oriented suburban layout. 4 Instead, new residential areas could 5 stress the advantages of traditional 6 village neighborhoods, with pedestrian 7 traffic, common areas, public activities 8 and a greater sense of community, re- 9 ferring to the so called "new urbanism." 10 The Pioneer proposal would establish 11 that there are viable alternatives to 12 the typical suburban-style development 13 in this community. Another advantage 14 of that "new urbanism" is the 15 preservation of open spaces within the 16 development. 17 We believe that the proposal before 18 you succeeds in helping the Village 19 maintain a greenbelt while enhancing 20 the tax base for both municipalities, 21 town and village, by providing a 22 coherent design for three different 23 properties. 24 In closing, the issues involved in 25 this petition are many and very 150 1 Norcross (Pioneer) 2 important and we sincerely appreciate 3 your patience and thank you for your 4 consideration. Thank you. 5 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: At this point 6 Mr. Norcross from Pioneer Development 7 would like to say a few words. 8 MR. NORCROSS: Yes, thank you good 9 evening, my name is David Norcross, I'm 10 with the Pioneer Company in Syracuse, 11 New York. I don't intend to go through 12 a full presentation of the site plan 13 this evening. We are here to answer 14 questions, you know, as we go along. I 15 will just give you a brief overview for 16 those that may not have seen this site- 17 plan either last week or on the website. 18 The commercial portion of this 19 property, commercial is located in this 20 general area. Supermarket, approx- 21 imately 37,000 square feet. The entire 22 commercial buildout is projected to be 23 approximately 74,000 square feet at 24 full buildout. 25 The main entrance to the project, 151 1 Norcross (Pioneer) 2 Route 20, located in that area. The 3 current location of the Enders home is 4 approximately where that curb-cut is 5 located now. The proposed relocation 6 of the Enders house that Jim Evans 7 spoke about is in this general area. 8 The Stowell property is currently in 9 that specific area. The large wood lot 10 that Jim Evans spoke about is here and 11 its entirely maintained as a buffer 12 both between the commercial and the 13 residential but also the viewshed from 14 Route 20. 15 The proposed residential develop- 16 ment consists of approximately 65 lots. 17 On this particular plan, I would just 18 reiterate that this plan is conceptual 19 at this point, it was done to give both 20 Boards here the general idea of what 21 could be accomplished on this property. 22 It is certainly not cast in stone, and 23 we have in fact agreed with CPF that 24 this entire project is subject to their 25 review and approval with respect to, 152 1 Norcross (Pioneer) 2 you know, the design, the architecture, 3 so that we expect to get a substantial 4 and a significant amount of community 5 input through CPF into any final design 6 elements of this particular project. 7 With regard to the annexation 8 process, as Liz Moran has indicated, 9 annexation is just a first step in this 10 process. The actual act of annexation 11 of this 54 acre parcel would not entitle 12 Pioneer as the developer to any rights, 13 development rights on this property. 14 It's a multi-step process that, you 15 know, would include input from CPF. It 16 would include a rezoning action in 17 front of the Village Board if the 18 annexation is approved and then would 19 require further site plan approval by 20 the Village Planning Board. So 21 throughout that process we would expect 22 to be able to incorporate comments from 23 the Village residents to try and make 24 this project the best project that we 25 possibly can. 153 1 Norcross (Pioneer) 2 So I would just say that we would 3 like the opportunity to work with the 4 Village and come up with a very high 5 quality project that would be an asset 6 to this community. And if there is any 7 questions as we go forward we would be 8 happy to try and answer them. 9 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: Thank you, Mr. 10 Norcross. Okay, at this point we're 11 going to open it up to public comment. 12 We have a full room and a fairly large 13 room, so I'm going to ask tonight that 14 people come to the microphone to speak. 15 You'll need to identify your name and 16 your address. 17 And the same ground rules apply. 18 We are going to courtesy rules here. 19 No clapping, no cheering, no addressing 20 other members of the audience, address 21 your comments to the board. If we are 22 going to ask either the applicant or 23 CPF or an appropriate member of our 24 professional staff and consultants to 25 answer we'll do that from the Board. 154 1 Connor 2 So it will go smoothly, it went 3 smoothly last week, I'm looking forward 4 to really hearing lots of feedback. I 5 know that there is a lot of interest in 6 the project. So you can raise your 7 hand, you can start to make your way 8 over to the mike if that's appropriate. 9 Start moving toward the center perhaps. 10 ROB CONNOR (1 Ledyard): I haven't 11 done this since Spelling Bee. I'm Rob 12 Connor, I live at 1 Ledyard Avenue in 13 the Village. I came to the initial 14 phase of the hearing last week and I 15 appreciate the indulgence of the board 16 and the audience for enabling me to ask 17 a few questions which certainly 18 galvanized my opinion in opposition to 19 the project. 20 And given the tight time frame, not 21 even really the full ten days due to 22 the holiday, a group of us got together 23 to discuss how to best communicate our 24 opposition to the board, and decided 25 that a petition would be an effective 155 1 Connor 2 way of getting a sense of how the 3 community feels about the project. And 4 I'd like to share the petition, if I 5 may read it to the Board, and then 6 share the results with the Board and 7 with the Boards and with the audience. 8 This petition is opposed to the 9 proposed annexation and it reads as 10 follows: 11 "Due to the limited public comment 12 period available for the Pioneer 13 annexation request, we the undersigned, 14 have added our names to this petition 15 because we wish to go on record as 16 agreeing to the following findings. 17 1. We're current residents of the 18 Village and/or the Town of Cazenovia, 19 New York. 20 2. We place great value in the 21 unique features of this community, 22 including its historic charm, quaint 23 Albany Street business district and 24 beautiful and essential greenbelt. 25 3. We do not believe Pioneer has 156 1 Connor 2 provided sufficient information on the 3 proposed development for the village or 4 town boards to assess the potential 5 impact on our community and our 6 environment. 7 4. We believe the proposed Pioneer 8 annexation is not in the overall public 9 interest. 10 And therefore we urge you to vote 11 no to the Pioneer annexation petition." 12 We engaged in some good old- 13 fashioned retail politics this weekend 14 through the snow and the sleet, and it 15 was kind of fun actually; cold but fun. 16 We tried to divide up the town and the 17 village and get a pretty broad sampling 18 of people's opinions on this. And I'd 19 like to share the results. And in this 20 binder I actually have three separate 21 petitions, so I'll describe those. 22 The petition I just read we took 23 around town on foot and we, according 24 to our tabulation, we have managed to 25 gather 406 signatures opposed to the 157 1 Connor 2 annexation. In our door-to-door 3 surveying we encountered 58 respondents 4 who indicated that they were actually 5 for the proposal. 6 We also put the petition on a 7 website that enabled people to respond 8 online with an electronic signature. 9 That effort garnered 132 signatures. 10 And then finally there was a 11 separate petition that was circulated I 12 think in the, largely in the P&C parking 13 lot that garnered 60 signatures. 14 So in total by my math we have 598 15 signatures here opposed to the plan. 16 Within our door-to-door sample, which 17 was the only way to effectively ask, we 18 tried to keep track of people who were 19 for it, we didn't ask them to sign 20 anything, but the numbers come out 87 21 and-a-half percent opposed and 12 22 and-a-half percent for. That's out of 23 the handwritten petition that we went 24 door-to-door with. 25 We're going to leave the online 158 1 Connor 2 site up if people want to continue to 3 add names to that. I understand that 4 the comment period is closing after 5 tonight. And I would just say that 6 based on, in my experience going door- 7 to-door, I only had I think three 8 people who said they were for the 9 project but this is consistent with the 10 other 14 or 15 people who went around. 11 The other people who said they were for 12 the project are really just looking for 13 a different place to buy groceries as 14 opposed to an endorsement of this 15 development proposal. 16 So I recognize that there is a lot 17 of emotion surrounding this debate and 18 I know that this isn't a perfect 19 document but I hope that the Boards 20 will take seriously the effort that we 21 made not only in the context of this 22 particular debate but also in the 23 context of the Muraco annexation 24 proposal that the Board is going to 25 deal with next. Because I think what 159 1 Miller 2 this represents is a very strong and 3 thorough indication of community 4 sentiment opposed to continued 5 development not only in the face of the 6 moratorium but just in general as we 7 grapple with a lot of the challenging 8 issues that this unique community faces. 9 So I appreciate everybody's help 10 signing, gathering signatures, I 11 appreciate you receiving this, and 12 thank you for your service. 13 LAURA MILLER (3986 Moseley Road): 14 Hi, I'm Laura Miller and I live on 15 Moseley Road, 3986. I think we should 16 be careful about taking polling data 17 from petitioners. I think we should be 18 wary of that information. 19 I have two questions. One for the 20 CPF. And that is how much emphasis on 21 architecture and sidewalks and 22 community development, how much are 23 they emphasizing that as they think 24 about this development? 25 And a question for Pioneer. Perhaps 160 1 Symonds (CPF) 2 they could give us an example of a 3 development where they took a lot of 4 strong input from an organization like 5 CPF, where they had architecture and 6 heritage in mind. 7 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: Thank you, Laura. 8 Pringle, would you like to speak on 9 behalf of CPF? 10 PRINGLE SYMONDS (CPF): I'm Pringle 11 Symonds, vice-president of the 12 Cazenovia Preservation Foundation. On 13 the subject of architecture, sidewalks 14 and so forth, we've worked, our Design 15 Review Committee is composed of a 16 number of people, several of whom are a 17 part of the landscape architecture 18 department which deals with planning at 19 ESF, one of whom is Scott Shannon, who 20 is an assistant professor there. Even 21 though he is known to be in Costa Rica 22 he has been on top of these plans right 23 along, thanks to electronics. That's 24 making this a really quality plan and 25 one that sets an example both in terms 161 1 Norcross (Pioneer) 2 of the residential and the commercial 3 development and open space around 4 commercial buildings is a very 5 important aspect of it for CPF. Thank 6 you. 7 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: Thank you, Pringle. 8 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We can't hear 9 very well with the mike on and people 10 facing that way, I can hardly hear 11 anything. 12 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: Just speak 13 louder into the mike. Mr. Norcross, 14 would you like to respond to the 15 question of an example where Pioneer 16 has taken strong community input? 17 MR. NORCROSS: Yes, I think the two 18 that come to mind immediately are a 19 residential project in Camillus called 20 Annesgrove was a product that was 21 designed by Andres Duany who is a new 22 urbanistic architect, and we worked 23 very closely with the Town of Camillus 24 and the residents there to, you know, 25 develop that project. We also worked 162 1 LaRose 2 very closely with the village of 3 Skaneateles in the development of a 4 Packwood house, which is a main street 5 small boutique hotel right on Route 20. 6 And we worked very closely with the 7 village and the community and the 8 design of that particular project. 9 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: Thank you. Sir? 10 MR. LaROSE: Can you hear me? 11 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: Have to speak up. 12 WILLIAM LAROSE: My name is William 13 LaRose, I'm a resident of Cazenovia and 14 have been for about forty years. My 15 concern is the collection and disposal 16 of sewage and storm drain runoff which 17 would be generated if this project goes 18 forward. 19 What I have read in some of the 20 literature the word aquifer has been 21 suggested. An aquifer is a nice source 22 of water. It's below ground, but there 23 is nothing been mentioned about the 24 wastewater and sewage and storm runoff. 25 I guess that's it. 163 1 Norcross (Pioneer) 2 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: Thank you. 3 MR. NORCROSS: Did you want me to 4 respond to that? 5 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: You may but I'm 6 encouraging people to start moving to 7 the mike if they know they want to ask 8 a question. Go ahead, David. 9 MR. NORCROSS: Relative to storm- 10 water collection there is an existing 11 drainage area that is in approximately 12 that area on the map. That area would 13 be expanded. There is shown on this 14 map two or three proposed retention 15 ponds that would retain stormwater. By 16 DEC regulations we have to retain 17 stormwater on this site. 18 The other question that was raised 19 relative to sanitary sewers is that 20 this project would be connected to the 21 Madison County sanitary sewer system 22 and it would be treated through the 23 regular wastewater treatment plant. So 24 that there wouldn't be any affect on 25 the aquifer in so far as the sanitary 164 1 Brownback 2 sewer elements are concerned. 3 Because this plan is just conceptual, 4 you know, there has not been any hard 5 design relative to the stormwater piece 6 of this and how it can be designed to 7 protect the aquifer. That certainly 8 would be something that we will need 9 to, you know, delve into much more 10 thoroughly as we move ahead with this 11 project. 12 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: Thank you. 13 RUSS BROWNBACK: Hi, I'm Russ Brown- 14 back, live on Rippleton Road here in 15 the Village. I have just a couple 16 issues I want to address. The first 17 few are environmental. And question - 18 my first question relates to the topic 19 you were just discussing. 20 From the Environmental Assessment 21 Form you all filled out, question 22 Number 2 points out that "Roads, 23 buildings and other paved surfaces" 24 will go from less than two percent of 25 the proposed area currently to almost a 165 1 Brownback - Schneider 2 third. 3 So roughly 16 of 54 acres are going 4 to be covered with some sort of 5 impervious surface ultimately. So 6 again, you said that more work will be 7 done in terms of runoff and issues like 8 that. I just wanted to point out that 9 16 of 54 acres will be covered with the 10 surface where the runoff will then be 11 concentrated in these areas, and that's 12 over the aquifer as you said or near it 13 certainly. So you did address that, I 14 was going to ask you if you had. So 15 thank you for doing that. 16 Next I want to ask have you guys 17 done a soil test? 18 MR. SCHNEIDER: Geotechnical soil 19 test as in structural stability? 20 MR. BROWNBACK: Yes. 21 MR. SCHNEIDER: That has been 22 ongoing for about the last two weeks. 23 Q. (Brownback) So we don't have any 24 results? 25 A. (Schneider) It's not in a 166 1 Brownback - Schneider 2 formalized report at this time. All 3 the drilling has been done and it's 4 being put into a report. 5 Q. Okay. No early results though? 6 A. Yeah, there is a lot of gravel, 7 glacial till up on the top that's very 8 hard, you know. All good suitable soil 9 for construction. 10 Q. Has a wetlands delineation been 11 undertaken? 12 A. Yes, it has. 13 Q. Has the depth of the water table 14 been estimated? 15 A. Yes, it has based on those borings 16 and I don't have those results. Like I 17 said, that report is not complete. 18 Q. And then the wetland delineation, 19 will that be available for public 20 display? 21 A. Yes, it will become a public record 22 when we send it to Army Corps of 23 Engineers and the DEC. 24 Q. Question 9 asks whether the site 25 located off a primary principal or sole 167 1 Brownback - Schneider 2 source aquifer and the no box is checked. 3 What about any sort of recharge area, 4 is this proposed site over any recharge 5 area related to the aquifer? 6 A. I think, you know, some portion 7 will be in that area. One of the 8 reasons we are stressing that it's a 9 concept plan because we want to take 10 the input from the community and 11 possibly shape it, move it and create 12 something that everybody is comfortable 13 with. 14 To answer that question that we 15 know exactly what portion is going to 16 end up over that aquifer would be 17 premature at this time. 18 MR. BROWNBACK: Well, on environ- 19 mental issues certainly it's gratifying 20 to hear that some of these issues are 21 being explored but seems to me like 22 from my perspective we don't know 23 enough yet to warrant this project to 24 conclude right away that it's in the 25 best interests of the public based on 168 1 Brownback 2 purely environmental issues. 3 Next I just want to go back to the 4 Environmental Assessment Form. Question 5 13 asks if the site is presently used 6 for community or neighborhood open 7 space. And again the no box is 8 checked. And I just want to go on 9 record as respectfully disagreeing. 10 And so apparently do many many of the 11 residents whose doors I knocked on this 12 weekend. 13 The proposed property is in the 14 greenbelt and this EAF acknowledges 15 that the site does indeed "include 16 scenic views known to be important to 17 the community". And so you know, again 18 from my perspective efforts to retain 19 some of the greenbelt notwithstanding, 20 you know, the green space as we know it 21 today will be greatly mitigated. 22 So again the 1984 Land Use Guide; 23 the 1991 Village of Cazenovia Compre- 24 hensive Plan all urge, I'm paraphrasing 25 here, "policy makers and citizens to 169 1 Brownback 2 preserve natural historic and scenic 3 resources." Again, so did many many of 4 the people whose doors I knocked on 5 this weekend. 6 So again, you know, based on 7 uncertainty about the future of major 8 scenic resources that's widely known to 9 provide some of the Cazenovia's 10 uniqueness I find it difficult that we 11 can come to a conclusion that this 12 project at this point is in the public 13 best interests or specifically the 14 annexation is. 15 Then lastly just some economic 16 questions. Question, sorry, related to 17 the residential portion. Over the past 18 seven years the town of Cazenovia has 19 averaged roughly a hundred arms length 20 residential real estate transactions 21 per year. And the rate has been fairly 22 steady, if anything it's ticked down 23 over the last year or so. Right now 24 there is 86 MLS listings in Cazenovia 25 school district, which represents about 170 1 Brownback - Norcross 2 10 and-a-half months of inventory, 3 which is about 150 percent of the 4 national average by the way. 5 65 homes proposed here, 14 at 6 Chenango Crossing, 30ish on Burton 7 Street, I'm sure there is others I'm 8 missing. In a pretty short time frame 9 you're more than doubling the inventory 10 of available homes. So what I want to 11 know is has any study been done to 12 indicate that our population is set to 13 grow so much more quickly over the next 14 few years that we can absorb such a 15 massive inventory without increasing 16 pushing down the value of existing 17 properties. 18 MR. NORCROSS: We're in the process 19 of doing a market study right now on 20 single family housing to try to 21 determine a size, price point, things 22 of that nature as well as the demand. 23 So that process is ongoing. 24 Q. (Brownback) But it's uncertain at 25 this point? 171 1 Brownback - Norcross 2 A. (Norcross) Do not have the results 3 of it. 4 Q. Thank you. Has any study been done 5 to indicate that our community can 6 support two grocery stores, 7 specifically side by side? 8 A. We have not done any research on 9 that. 10 Q. How about any study to indicate 11 that we can support three pharmacies or 12 another bank, the same goes? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Has anybody analyzed the impact on 15 the Albany Street business district? 16 A. No specific studies have been 17 conducted in that area, no. 18 MR. BROWNBACK: So again, I want to 19 comment that I think on economic issues 20 again, it's very difficult to conclude 21 that we can decide now that annexation 22 is in the public interest. Thank you. 23 COUNCILOR SCHOCH: Could you tell 24 me approximately these additional 25 studies that are being done when you 172 1 Schoch Q&A 2 expect them to be completed? I'm 3 sensing within the ninety days that we 4 have? 5 MR. NORCROSS: Yes, with regard to 6 the market study on the single family 7 housing that will be done by the end of 8 this month, I believe. 9 COUNCILOR SCHOCH: The soil? 10 MR. SCHNEIDER: That will be done 11 by the end of this month. Wetland 12 delineation is done except for the 13 mapping of it in the report which is a 14 survey, it's been picked up, it's in 15 the computers just needs to be printed 16 and finalized. So all these things are 17 within a couple of weeks I would say of 18 being a completed study. 19 COUNCILOR SCHOCH: Thank you. 20 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: Would anyone 21 else like to speak. Sparky, come 22 forward. 23 SPARKY CHRISTAKOS: Thank you for 24 having another hearing, boards, plural. 25 I want to talk about the overall public 173 1 Christakos 2 interest a little bit. I think the 3 survey results or petition results or 4 whatever with 591 people speaking 5 against this is an overwhelming number 6 actually in just two days time showing 7 the public interest is not in favor of 8 this. 9 Even more important than the 10 numbers is the percentage. 87 1/2 11 percent of the respondents when asked 12 the question: Are you in favor or 13 opposed? Were opposed. 14 Let the record show that the public 15 interest is not with this development. 16 I'd like to also continue on to say 17 that although the moratorium to John's 18 point earlier I'll do my best here 19 John, okay, does not prohibit annexation. 20 The board with the Municipal Law of 21 1965 allows the board to be subjective 22 in their view of what is in the public 23 interest. 24 You as boards plural can decide 25 that annexation is not appropriate 174 1 Christakos 2 because it's not in the interest of the 3 public. The Town Board has really gone 4 on record with their moratorium of 5 saying the public interest is the plan. 6 We have really set the precedent of 7 saying: Stop and plan. 8 And continuing on with that same 9 thought process allows you subjective 10 opportunity to say this is not in the 11 public interest and we can deny an 12 annexation. I don't think you're 13 prohibited from denying annexation 14 because it doesn't, it's not involved 15 in the moratorium. I think you can use 16 your subjective right to vote it down 17 based on the fact that it's not in the 18 public interest. You might want to 19 consult your attorney on that. 20 I've got a few things here. I want 21 to talk about the EAF to Mr. Brownback's 22 point. I want to know why Pioneer on 23 two occasions last week and this week 24 said it was a 37,000 square foot store 25 when their traffic study says it's a 175 1 Christakos & Schneider 2 42,000 square foot store. 3 MR. SCHNEIDER: Well, we have to 4 pick numbers. The grocer that we're 5 talking to has requested the ability to 6 expand the store by 5,000 feet. So the 7 traffic study -- 8 MR. CHRISTAKOS: I'm glad I asked. 9 MR. SCHNEIDER: So the traffic 10 study takes into consideration the 11 expansion. So therefore should they 12 request a permission for site plan 13 approval from the Village Board in the 14 future to expand and were able to 15 obtain that the traffic study would 16 already have contemplated that. 17 Q. (Christakos) And am I right in 18 saying that the traffic study says that 19 there will be 950 trips maximum per hour? 20 A. (Schneider) There will be in the 21 maximum peak hour, that's correct. 22 Q. 950 per hour that would be four -- 23 one trip every four seconds? 24 A. That sounds dramatic but it really 25 isn't. If you look at the level of 176 1 Christakos & Schneider 2 service that these intersections work 3 at per the DOT standards they're the 4 highest level you can get which is a 5 Level A. I know it sound dramatic when 6 you throw out 950 but it really isn't 7 when you look at how the DOT manages 8 traffic. 9 Q. I'm just doing simple math. Thank 10 you for your help. Have you talked at 11 all yet about your drive-through drug 12 store? 13 A. We have no -- no deal on the table 14 with any drug store, have not proposed 15 a site plan to a drug store. We 16 haven't proposed a site plan to a bank. 17 Q. But it's in your traffic study that 18 you're going to have -- 19 A. I have to choose something that 20 picks traffic generation and I've got 21 to look at -- I have to look at a mixed 22 use development because that says those 23 are vital components to provide the 24 community. I don't know what else you 25 would have rather I would have chosen. 177 1 Christakos & Schneider 2 Q. I'm just trying to find out what 3 you're going to choose? 4 A. It's not my choice at the end of 5 the day, it's if the retailer is 6 interested, if the user is interested. 7 Q. But really you don't know? 8 A. I absolutely don't know. 9 Q. You made a, you put up a slide last 10 week -- 11 SUPERVISOR MORAN: I'm sorry, 12 you're going to have to identify 13 yourself. 14 MR. SCHNEIDER: I'm Jed Schneider 15 with the Pioneer Company. 16 MR. CHRISTAKOS: You put up a slide 17 last week about the tax benefits of 18 this. Do you intend on using Real 19 Property Tax Law Section 485 B, which 20 reduces the tax income by 50 percent in 21 the first 10 years. You didn't mention 22 that last week when you showed us the 23 numbers. 24 MR. NORCROSS: Yes, we did not take 25 into account any 485 B allocations in 178 1 Christakos & Norcross 2 those numbers. I don't know whether 3 either municipality here being the town 4 or the village accepts 485 B or whether 5 the school accepts 485 B. 6 Q. I think it's a state decision. But 7 let it be known that the commercial 8 portion of your numbers, if the 485 B 9 is used, would be decreased by 50 10 percent. Would that be correct? 11 A. (Norcross) That's not true unless 12 the, all the municipalities were to 13 accept 485 B, and that would be - 485 B 14 is 50 percent in the first year and 15 then it increases 5 percent every year 16 thereafter. 17 Q. I also have another question. Do 18 you expect to put this in the Empire 19 Zone which would mean no taxes to the 20 State of New York? 21 A. We have no control over Empire Zone 22 boundaries. This particular property 23 is not in the Empire Zone. 24 Q. Do you intend to try to annex it to 25 the Empire Zone? 179 1 Christakos & Norcross 2 A. There is no way that we could annex 3 this property into the Empire Zone. 4 Q. Petition to get it into? 5 A. That to my understanding - that is 6 a decision that would be made by 7 Madison County. 8 Q. Thank you. I'd like to talk about 9 the aquifer for a moment. You say in 10 your EAF, and you checked the box that 11 this is not on the aquifer. How do you 12 know that? 13 A. We reviewed the maps that were part 14 of the 1991 comprehensive plan which 15 show the existence of the recharge area 16 for the aquifer that run right along 17 the western property line of the -- or 18 excuse me western boundary of the 19 property; and then basically move 20 westerly. The primary recharge area as 21 designated on that map appears to be 22 south of Route 20. We believe it's on 23 the edge of the aquifer recharge area. 24 Q. So I'm confused. Because that's 25 inconsistent with your co-petitioner, 180 1 Christakos & Norcross 2 the CPF who wrote in 1999 on the exact 3 same site that Wal-Mart's EAF shows 4 it's proposed store is located over the 5 principal aquifer - I'm quoting them, 6 "Wal-Mart's EAF shows the proposed 7 store is located over the principal 8 aquifer for the Village of Cazenovia." 9 CPF went on to say "any threat to that 10 aquifer is a major concern." This is 11 the same parcel of land, Mr. Norcross, 12 how do you explain the discrepancy? 13 A. Number 1, I don't know where the 14 proposed Wal-Mart building was to be 15 located. But I think I indicated 16 before that this is a conceptual plan. 17 We have not specifically done a 18 hydrology study for this site which 19 certainly would have to be done if we 20 move forward with it. I am relating to 21 you our understanding of where the 22 aquifer is located based on maps that 23 were part of the 1991 Comprehensive Plan. 24 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: I'd also like to 25 ask a response from CPF perhaps to your 181 1 Symonds 2 question. 3 PRINGLE SYMONDS: I just wanted to 4 say that I think on a couple of times, 5 I think only once but it may have 6 happened more often, we talked about 7 the aquifer recharge area. Because the 8 aquifer was not there, and I think as 9 you know Faith Snap was on our 10 committee and she was very concerned 11 with aquifers and aquifer recharge 12 areas. 13 And I think in most of our 14 literature we have talked about the 15 aquifer recharge area there, which is 16 of great concern to CPF. That is one 17 of the things we would be very careful 18 about. This is a conceptual design and 19 we know it's going to be worked over 20 carefully and it will be looked at by 21 CACC, which is the group that works for 22 both the village and the town an 23 advisory capacity on those things. And 24 they are exceedingly careful about 25 those types of things. 182 1 Christakos 2 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: Thank you, Pringle. 3 MR. CHRISTAKOS: Thank you, Mrs. 4 Symonds. I would again like to read 5 the quote from 1999 that CPF submitted 6 where it says "this proposed store is 7 located over the principal aquifer for 8 the Village of Cazenovia. Any threat 9 to that aquifer is a major concern." 10 In that same document in 1999, the 11 opposition to the proposed Wal-Mart 12 store on the very same site being the 13 petitioner here, stated that the area 14 proposed for rezoning is part of the 15 greenbelt that surrounds the Village of 16 Cazenovia. It went on and quoted, "it 17 is located directly over the recharge 18 area for the village aquifer that is 19 crucial. And directly adjacent to a 20 park and conservation area." 21 I believe that that document in 22 1999, which is now in the record I 23 think from last week, if not we'll put 24 it in tonight, should be looked at 25 again. Because exactly the arguments 183 1 Christakos 2 by the 591 people that signed that 3 petition are almost, they almost lay 4 out the argument right there. 5 I'd like to go on to a water quality 6 protection strategy and economic 7 document that was done on March 21, 2002 8 on behalf of the town and the Village 9 of Cazenovia. And it talks about an 10 Action Plan, this was a study about 11 sprawl and development. And it says, 12 the Action Plan, one of the key issues 13 here and I'll quote it, this is 14 actually directed to the town and 15 village boards in 2002, "is to protect 16 environmentally sensitive resources 17 such as the Village of Cazenovia's 18 municipal water supply and its aquifer 19 recharge area, significant viewsheds 20 and the rural character of the corridor 21 from inappropriate heavy industrial big 22 box commercial uses." 23 It went on to suggest or recommend 24 to the town and village "the known 25 direct recharge area for the village 184 1 Christakos 2 municipal water supply adjoins the US 3 Route 20 in the area immediately east 4 of the village and Chittenango Creek," 5 which is near this site. "Currently no 6 town or village regulations protect 7 this vital resource. Given the 8 potential for the corridor area to 9 undergo major land use changes and 10 rezoning municipal zoning codes need to 11 be amended by: 12 1. Developing appropriate 13 management guidelines and establishing, 14 adopting an aquifer district that will 15 protect the direct aquifer recharge area. 16 2. Developing impervious surface 17 limits for development in the aquifer 18 recharge district." 19 And I'll go back to Mr. Brownback's 20 point that we're talking about in this 21 development, I believe Mr. Norcross in 22 your thing, in your EAF you said 16 23 acres would be road, parking lot, 24 driveway or rooftop. I think that's 25 correct. They suggested developing 185 1 Hubbard 2 impervious surface limits. 3 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: Okay, Sparky, we 4 have of lot of these documents in the 5 record, so would you like to kind of 6 make your points in a more concise 7 manner, please. 8 MR. CHRISTAKOS: Maybe I'll take a 9 break and let someone else speak then 10 come back. 11 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: That will be 12 acceptable. Thank you very much. 13 Let's let everybody who wants to speak 14 once before we go around again. Next, 15 Mr. Hubbard. 16 RICHARD HUBBARD: Richard Hubbard, 17 7 Hickory Lane. Having been on the 18 board of CPF for many years and also 19 being a village trustee for as many 20 until I moved out of the village, this 21 particular piece of property has come 22 up over and over and over again. 23 While on CPF I know we stopped 24 Wal-Mart from going in there because we 25 didn't want a big box, we didn't want 186 1 Hubbard 2 it developed. CPF put out a fund raiser 3 to ask all the members, maybe 5, 600 4 members at the time to give money so we 5 can buy that land so that nothing like 6 this would happen. 7 I'm asking the board of directors 8 of the CPF, since I'm a member, I never 9 got a survey. Did you ever survey any 10 of your memberships whether you had the 11 right to go ahead and sell land which 12 the group owns? I don't know if a vote 13 has ever been taken by the board with 14 its own membership to see if this is 15 even doable. 16 The other question I have is for 17 Pioneer Group. Have you ever been 18 stopped doing something and then you 19 see a competition coming in doing the 20 same thing, have you ever sued a 21 municipality for the money that you put 22 into it when you see another one came 23 right in and got exactly what you 24 asked? Have you ever sued anybody for 25 damages for something like this? 187 1 Hubbard & Reister 2 MR. NORCROSS: I don't believe the 3 Pioneer Company has ever been involved 4 in a lawsuit like that. 5 MR. SCHNEIDER: Not that I was part 6 of. 7 MR. HUBBARD: With enough lawyers 8 in the room I can see you might open 9 yourself up for that. Those are my 10 only two points. I've never been, as a 11 member of CPF, ever been questioned 12 whether I was for this or against this. 13 And I would think before a board went 14 on their own they might ask their own 15 membership, who they've asked for money 16 to stop this, how they felt about it. 17 I just think that's a good suggestion. 18 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: Thank you, 19 Richard. 20 DOROTHY RIESTER: I want to talk 21 about the same thing. I'm going to 22 talk from over here. My name is 23 Dorothy Reister, I live on Stone Quarry 24 Road. I'm one of the founding members 25 of CPF. And one - many of you here are 188 1 Reister 2 donors who pay the yearly dividend 3 interest on the loan to buy this 4 property. And we do it gladly because 5 of the plan that was put on for this 6 property at the time it was bought. 7 And I want to, if I can use Pioneer's 8 map because I couldn't find the map on 9 this. 10 CPF owns all the way from where 11 Enders house is back to Fenner Road. 12 And then over, there is a small 13 entryway into Fenner and then next to 14 the soccer field. Then it goes up, if 15 you see this little thing here, it goes 16 up into wooded area next to Tommy 17 Vogt's. Then across here is a very 18 nice green area. 19 Now when we voted to buy this 20 property we had a very very good 21 planner who came and spoke how this 22 property should be used. And this 23 planner said, the corridor along Route 24 20 should remain forever green. 25 Cazenovia is noted for its farmland 189 1 Riester 2 and it's rolling fields and so forth. 3 This is the approach to the village. 4 And to let you know how important this 5 is, if you've been to Skaneateles 6 lately, the village, you go over the 7 lovely hills and then you finally get 8 to used car lots and this and this and 9 this, because they didn't have the 10 zoning and the planning to plan the 11 entrance to the village. And it's a 12 very rude awakening to their village. 13 So this original plan was to save 14 this area. Then this area, the wooded 15 area here, was to be for walks and 16 houses and kind of a buffer zone. Then 17 this area back here, there was to be 18 clusters of houses. And this was to be 19 built upon, based upon Summerfield, 20 which is a prize winning development in 21 Florida, near, whatever the capital of 22 Florida is. 23 UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tallahassee. 24 DOROTHY RIESTER: And these were 25 small individual houses in a community 190 1 Riester 2 with sidewalks and back yards, and it 3 was based very very much on what we 4 have on Lincklaen Street and Sullivan 5 Street, houses close together with back 6 yards and sidewalks and neighbors and 7 so forth; which would have the same 8 character as the village. This has no 9 feeling about Cazenovia or the history. 10 I mean it's kind of a worm-like shape. 11 If this were the greenbelt and it 12 could stay in agricultural, we need 13 more hay fields, because Cazenovia is 14 growing as an equine center; and having 15 talked to two local dairy farmers 16 they're making as much money and maybe 17 more selling hay than they do milking 18 cows. So this has a very very good 19 use. Then this could be the area for 20 walking and so forth. 21 Then according to the plan of this 22 planner, I don't know it must have been 23 about 10 or 15 years ago, up in there 24 could be, at that time they called them 25 apartments, but now they can be 191 1 Riester 2 condominiums, whatever. And then this 3 area going over to Fenner Road would be 4 this village which would be an echo of 5 the Cazenovia village. And that is 6 what should be annexed. And that would 7 be a part of the character of the whole 8 thing. 9 Now the CPF owns this land and I 10 think they must consider the whole 11 thing, and why they have it and why so 12 many of us bought into going ahead and 13 helping with this mortgage. And I 14 think all of us would be willing to 15 keep on supporting until this gets the 16 proper planning. And I think we're on 17 the brink of doing it. If you have any 18 questions on that let me know, because 19 I feel very strongly about this. 20 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: No clapping or 21 I'll shut it down. Thank you, Dorothy. 22 Come to the mike please. 23 MICHAEL SULLIVAN: Good evening 24 everyone, I'm Michael Sullivan, 25 Chairman of the CACC, and Don Ferlow is 192 1 Sullivan 2 with me in the back. All of our members 3 have spent a lot of time looking into 4 this and the other twenty issues that 5 are on the table for this town. I 6 think that combined with holiday stress 7 is probably reaching its peak right now. 8 But I want to just give you guys our 9 remarks, I won't read our letter to 10 you, I'll just highlight a couple parts 11 and read the very end. 12 I think Russ Brownback and Sparky 13 and Dorothy, your remarks are very 14 appropriate when we think about 15 planning and we think about history and 16 we think about development in general. 17 And one thing Don said recently, Don 18 Ferlow in the back, is like it or not 19 Cazenovia has been discovered. That's 20 a reality. Development is underway 21 within this village. And what we know 22 as a unique quaint small village is now 23 experiencing some growing. 24 One thing we do know is that 25 communities with only residential 193 1 Sullivan 2 development, generally suffer from 3 financial stress and require business 4 and land use growth that will provide a 5 diversity of revenue sources to balance 6 the tax burden. 7 With that understood, Don articulat- 8 ed very well last week our key concerns 9 as the CACC from an environmental stand- 10 point. Many people have brought that 11 up tonight. And I can assure everybody 12 that we will address those issues, 13 whether it's the aquifer, the storm- 14 water management, the overall aesthetics 15 and appearance of the project or the 16 fact that at that meeting in early 17 December we talked about an edge and 18 what is our village edge going to look 19 like. 20 So I'm not going to go over all of 21 those things because those have already 22 been reiterated by some of my fellow 23 people in the community that we all 24 live in. So I'll just read you the 25 last paragraph of our thoughts here. 194 1 Sullivan 2 "Will the annexation of a large 3 land parcel that has been presented as 4 a mixed use development function as a 5 prototype for what the future plan of 6 the Route 20 corridor might be? If 7 this was to occur would the result be a 8 positive or negative action for 9 Cazenovia? 10 With that said, it is our opinion 11 that given the key environmental 12 concerns, the concerns of this community 13 and the tremendous impact that this one 14 decision may have on the future of 15 Cazenovia, that both the town and 16 village boards not allow the current 17 plans of the developer, any developer 18 or any citizen, including several 19 developers that are sitting in this 20 room with other interests right now, 21 rush the future design of this town. 22 Planning takes time, planning must 23 be thoughtful, and planning must be 24 evaluated and re-evaluated. The fact 25 is that there is finally a Master Plan 195 1 Sullivan 2 in design and should be cause enough 3 for both boards to delay any further 4 construction until that Master Plan is 5 finalized and implemented. With that 6 in mind we respectfully request that 7 our town's Master Plan be fast tracked 8 so as to clearly define the standards 9 by which this community will continue 10 to grow. 11 Any developer who says they want to 12 come to this community and build with 13 good intentions should understand the 14 importance that a comprehensive Master 15 Plan has to our community. 16 Further, any developer truly 17 interested in what this community wants 18 will find it worth the wait." And I'll 19 submit our remarks to you. 20 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: Thanks, Mike. 21 No clapping, no cheering. Is there 22 anybody else who has yet to speak? 23 FRED JUNG: Fred Jung, 16 Farnham 24 Street, I have a letter I want to 25 submit to both boards, I'll paraphrase 196 1 Jung 2 it just in terms of brevity, not as 3 long as it looks I wrote it in large 4 print because I can't see it otherwise. 5 So anyway I just wanted to say that 6 fellow citizens and members of the 7 village and town boards, dear friends 8 and neighbors. 9 As Americans, conservation really 10 started in this country. So we've been, 11 in spite of all the bad press that 12 sometimes the world news gives us, we're 13 the guys that started it all. And we 14 have a responsibility to continue. 15 We're doing a great job trying to do 16 our best for the rain forest, people in 17 Africa, animals in Africa on so on and 18 so forth. What's happening right 19 before our very eyes, we may be losing 20 our most important resource, which is 21 our sense of community and the ability 22 to live in a rural environment. 23 I'm from New Jersey originally, and 24 not to contradict the gentleman or to 25 be contentious but the community I 197 1 Jung 2 lived in was called Short Hills. I was 3 there from the beginning when I was a 4 child, but my dad and grandfather were 5 - both lived there. It was a community 6 designed specifically for residential 7 living only. There is no shopping 8 center, there is no main street, there 9 is no village, there is nothing. It's 10 houses. And that's the good news. 11 Because when they wanted to do the 12 Short Hills Mall technically yes in 13 Short Hills, but so far out in the 14 middle of nowhere that no one that 15 lives in Short Hills sees it. 16 Property values gone through the 17 roof because the building codes 18 followed to the letter. You want to 19 buy a house there you've got to ante up. 20 Property values maintained, the quality 21 of living outside of the sprawl being 22 so darn close to New York, is good. So 23 it's not that - you can actually 24 develop or you can actually maintain 25 what you have. 198 1 Jung 2 Growth is not vital or necessary to 3 any community really if you want to 4 preserve a certain way of life. I 5 would point out to you, please look at 6 what's happening on Route 92 in Manlius 7 creeping towards us; it's getting 8 closer every day. To think that that 9 will not happen in the Route 20 10 corridor is foolish, because it will. 11 This project these gentlemen propose is 12 just the first domino in millions 13 stretching all the way to Albany. Once 14 the first one goes over everything else 15 will follow. That scares me to death 16 because I moved here to be in the 17 country, not in the suburbs. I can 18 live in the suburbs if I wanted to. 19 What I'm concerned about is, you 20 have to ask, if your children, don't 21 think of us, gee wouldn't it be keen to 22 have a grocery store here now. I mean 23 because I don't like this P&C either. 24 They have not responded, they didn't 25 get the message when we knocked 199 1 Jung 2 Wal-Mart out of here, their pricing is 3 predatory and on and on. 4 But that aside what's going to be 5 left for the generations, two or three 6 or four or five guys down the road? I 7 think not much if we don't stop this. 8 Do you think they would rather see wild 9 turkeys up in that field there or would 10 they rather look at a drive-in bank or 11 anything, pharmacy, whatever. 12 I think it's morally bankrupt to 13 rob them of the opportunities to see 14 the wildlife that we have here and that 15 our predecessors had. I just think 16 it's wrong. And I think they need and 17 the future generations need to be 18 considered rather than our own short- 19 sighted convenience. Many communities 20 throughout the United States now face 21 this dilemma which is upon us, namely 22 perceived convenience versus natural 23 beauty. Natural beauty heals the soul, 24 stimulates the artist and creates 25 natural wonder and humility in the face 200 1 Jung 2 of God's grand architectural work. 3 Isn't it better, and these are my 4 words, is it not better to stimulate 5 the heart, soul and mind rather than 6 the stomach or pander to instant short- 7 lived gratification? In the hearts and 8 minds of the greatest thinkers, 9 mystics, artists, musicians, businessmen, 10 hunters, hikers and birdwatchers down 11 through history, the resounding answer 12 is absolutely yes. 13 What would Beethoven do if he tried 14 to compose the Pastoral if he walked 15 out and looked at a supermarket? I'm 16 serious, because the future artistic 17 generations, they need to be able to 18 look at nature somewhere. And there is 19 nothing wrong with growing up in the 20 middle of it, it's a blessing. Where 21 is that going to come from? It's not 22 if rural life is knocked out of the way 23 in the space of development, which is 24 basically just not necessary. 25 What about the Audubon Society? 201 1 Jung 2 What would happen if there were no song- 3 birds, the wetland was gone or the 4 habitat knocked down? I mean we're 5 having every year less and less song- 6 birds in this country due to loss of 7 habitat, not only here but Mexico and 8 all over the place. It's a concern. 9 Not today, but what about your 10 grandchildren or great grandchildren 11 long after we're gone what are they 12 going to think of us? What kind of a 13 legacy are we going to leave them? And 14 that's what scares the heck out of me. 15 This country is the greatest 16 country in the world, founded by the 17 people - I just love it and I love 18 everything they've done, and it's our 19 responsibility to try to pass it on to 20 future generations. 21 And I'm - same thing with - take a 22 look at the impressionist painters. 23 How could they show us some simple 24 beauty like in ponds, landscapes and 25 gardens if they had to look at an office 202 1 Jung 2 building or apartment complex or 3 grocery store. It's insane. 4 I feel despoiling the natural 5 surroundings of our village will rape 6 and rob the future of art, literature, 7 science, music and sensibility and 8 everything that is judged good in this 9 world. Much more is at stake than 10 acreage, legal precedents and money. 11 What is really at stake is the heart 12 and soul of America and your children, 13 grandchildren, great grandchildren, and 14 so on down the line. 15 I ask you please, to defend them 16 with all your heart and reject this 17 current annexation and leave our green 18 space forever wild. Stay the course 19 and stand strong. Search your hearts. 20 It takes courage, finally, it takes 21 courage to stop a juggernaut, but we 22 Cazenovians have done so before and we 23 can do and will do it again and again 24 until our natural spaces and rural way 25 of life and everything good that 203 1 Stowell 2 springs from them is preserved and 3 protected as a sacred trust for our 4 future generations and for a model for 5 the rest of America. 6 RALPH STOWELL: My name is Ralph 7 Stowell. I'd like to clear up 8 something on this map if I may. 9 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: Yes, please. 10 RALPH STOWELL: This here is one 11 corner of my property. This is another 12 corner. This is another corner of my 13 property. This corner I'm not sure of, 14 this area. So that was not quite 15 correct, it's not all CPF. I would 16 love to have a grocery store that my 17 wife could go to instead of driving to 18 Manlius. 19 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: Thank you, Mr. 20 Stowell. 21 PRINGLE SYMONDS: I wanted to thank 22 Mr. Stowell for correcting that. I 23 think Mrs. Riester didn't realize that 24 that property includes only 30 acres or 25 30 something acres of the 107 that CPF 204 1 Symonds 2 owns. The other two properties are 3 Enders and Stowell, and I don't know 4 what the acreage is there but they make 5 up the western part. 6 Also I just wanted to comment on 7 Mr. Hubbard's remarks that he did not 8 know that CPF ever intended to sell the 9 property. Well, right from the time we 10 bought it that was very, it was very 11 clear that we were going to have to 12 develop part of it. And we did not 13 know what part or how that would 14 transpire. But we could not afford an 15 $800,000 piece of property. And of 16 course after seven years it costs more 17 when you add the interest. 18 However this is what I really wanted 19 to comment on about tonight for the 20 Preservation Foundation. I personally 21 have been involved with the so called 22 Ambrose property since 1990 or '91, 23 when members of the CPF Land Use 24 Committee met with the Superintendent 25 of Schools, the Mayor and the Town 205 1 Symonds 2 Supervisor to discuss acquisition and 3 use of that property for the community. 4 Unfortunately nothing came of that. 5 After CPF bought it in the 2000, 6 the late Supervisor Dreisbach and the 7 then Mayor Gregg wanted CPF's assurance 8 that the property would stay on the tax 9 rolls, which it has, and contain some 10 development that would contribute to 11 the tax base. 12 There were numerous buyers who 13 considered the property seriously. 14 They included not-for-profit assisted 15 living corporations, residential 16 developers, the Franklin Museum and a 17 few others. None found it feasible 18 without using a large part of the front 19 footage along Route 20. In addition, 20 each would have had to scar the 21 property with an expensive road to the 22 interior. 23 Finally, Pioneer came along. They 24 negotiated the purchase of the two 25 adjacent, basically commercial 206 1 Judge 2 properties to the west. Those two 3 properties provided the front footage 4 on Route 20 that CPF did not want to 5 sacrifice. Pioneer's plan also removes 6 the threat of a road on the Ambrose 7 property. Pioneer was willing to work 8 with CPF on a design with small 9 buildings in scale with the town and 10 village buildings except for the needed 11 anchor, the Price Chopper. 12 I hope you will approve the 13 annexation based on the concept 14 presented on November 15th. Thank you. 15 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: Next? 16 MATT JUDGE: My name is Matt Judge, 17 I live on East Lake Road. And for the 18 record Mr. Stenographer (court reporter) 19 I would like to make it clear I'm here 20 as a resident tonight and not a member 21 of Cazenovia School Board. 22 First question I'd like to ask is 23 of Pioneer is the definition and square 24 footage of a big box. 25 MR. NORCROSS: Well, I'm not sure 207 1 Judge & Norcross 2 that there is a technical definition. 3 In my opinion it would be a retail box 4 that would be in excess of 100,000 5 square feet. 6 Q. (Judge) So is a hundred thousand 7 feet the maximum, minimum? 8 A. (Norcross) I would say it would be 9 the minimum size of a "big box". 10 Q. That's the proper quote, big box? 11 A. Single use under one roof I would 12 say approximately a hundred thousand 13 square feet. 14 Q. So anything under a hundred 15 thousand square feet would be a retail 16 store, a small box? 17 A. I wouldn't necessarily refer to it 18 as a small box, no. 19 Q. Would you refer to big box as a 20 generic term? 21 A. Yes, I think it's become a generic 22 term. 23 Q. Dick's Sporting Goods is an average 24 big box of what, 130? 25 A. I don't know the exact size of 208 1 Judge & Norcross 2 their store. 3 Q. Lowe's? 4 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: Mr. Judge, make 5 your point. This is not a debate with 6 the developer. 7 Q. Trying to get a definition of big 8 box. Is there a definition of big box? 9 Apparently not, okay. 10 A. I told you I didn't think there was 11 a technical definition of one. 12 Q. Fine. I would like to ask Pioneer 13 have they discussed the growth through 14 residential with the Cazenovia School 15 Board referencing maximizing the school 16 district with new residents and new 17 children in the school system? 18 A. Yes, we have. We have submitted an 19 impact letter as part of our application 20 for annexation. That indicated that 21 based on the projections we have done 22 that this residential development would 23 not place a burden on the Cazenovia 24 school system. 25 MRS. RIESTER: How could you do that? 209 1 Judge & Symonds 2 Q. That letter is dated when, do you 3 know? 4 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: Yes, we have a 5 copy of that letter. 6 A. My guess would be October some time. 7 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: September 25, 2006. 8 Q. Thank you. To the CPF I would like 9 to ask, have they discussed openly with 10 the Cazenovia School District the 11 annexation of this property and how it 12 affects the property that's owned by 13 the school district on Fenner? 14 A. (Symonds) When we were first 15 working on it on the year 2000 and 2001 16 so forth we met with the Mayor Dennis 17 Gregg and the Supervisor Tom Dreisbach 18 and Chuck Reid, who was the superin- 19 tendent you called him then. We have 20 not met over these plans because this 21 is much more - we were talking conceptual 22 plans then, very conceptual. And 23 moving things around and discussing 24 anything that came on anyone's mind, we 25 did different lists of things each 210 1 Judge & Symonds 2 person wished would like to see there, 3 not all of which by any means would 4 fit. Probably have to have a thousand 5 acres to put everything on it. But 6 anyhow, we tried working out things 7 together and certainly - and I have 8 talked a little bit to Mr. Dubik about 9 it, but not a lot. Because I knew 10 this, they had to fill out forms that 11 were going to the school. 12 Q. So is there any concern of the CPF 13 concerning new residents, new children 14 filling the school district and the 15 need for a new school on the Fenner 16 Road property? Has there been any of 17 that coversation? 18 A. No, that's not our purview. That's 19 why we have a planning board and we 20 have people who do take that into 21 consideration and put it into the mix. 22 MR. JUDGE: So then I would comment 23 to the Village Board and the Town Board 24 that we need to be careful on 25 residential development that it may 211 1 Judge 2 maximize our school system, therefore 3 meaning we would have to look at the 4 additional building of a school system. 5 Currently the school district owns 6 property on Fenner Road and that would 7 mean additional development on that 8 property that - whether it's contiguous 9 of the aquifer, over the aquifer or 10 discharge to the aquifer, we would look 11 at a lot more development in that area. 12 So I think in a long term perspective 13 the board needs to take into account 14 the school district. The school 15 district should probably be brought 16 into the loop on the process with the 17 potential of residential homes that 18 bear new children to partake in the 19 school district. Thank you. 20 COUNCILOR RACE: Weren't they 21 already brought in? 22 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: Yes. 23 MR. JUDGE: Speaking as a member of 24 the school district I have seen 25 nothing. 212 1 St. John 2 COUNCILOR RACE: They have. 3 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: Thank you. 4 Okay, next, Mrs. St. John. 5 CLAUDIA ST. JOHN: I'm Claudia St. 6 John from 2181 Ten Eych Avenue. When 7 we were going door to door we talked to 8 a lot of people. And all of those of 9 us that went around encountered very 10 consistent questions. And one of them 11 was: Why is the CPF doing this? And 12 the other one was: I thought there was 13 a moratorium. 14 And to the first -- to the second 15 question, I was never really able to 16 explain why, if there was a moratorium, 17 there would even be the possibility of 18 annexation and developing. I under- 19 stand that development would occur in 20 the village but in terms of town 21 members, not town council members 22 voting on an annexation when they have 23 very decidedly said, hold off, let's 24 see what we want and let's see where we 25 want it before we go ahead. 213 1 St. John 2 Passing it over to the village 3 seems like an inconsistency to people I 4 spoke with. And it does to me too. If 5 the town council had the good sight to 6 have a moratorium to say, time out, it 7 seems then inconsistent that voting on 8 something like this would be a good 9 idea. 10 I understand that there could be a 11 question of whether or not you're even 12 able to vote down an annexation. I 13 don't have a legal degree and I 14 couldn't speak to that, but it seems 15 like the idea to have a moratorium in 16 the first place was a really good one. 17 To the first question, as to why 18 the CPF is doing this, of course all of 19 this property in the greenbelt that we 20 all value and we all cherish as our own 21 really is privately owned. And I hope 22 everybody that's here today is going to 23 be here next Monday because there is 24 going to be an annexation hearing. 25 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: Tuesday. 214 1 St. John 2 MS. ST. JOHN: Next Tuesday, one 3 week from today for the parcel exactly 4 across the street from the one that 5 we're looking at, again, for more 6 development. And there have been 7 annexation hearings before and after. 8 And all of the documents in this 9 community, they speak to the importance 10 of the greenbelt. And the Comprehensive 11 Plan is under review to really assess 12 what we value in that greenbelt. But 13 buy the time that review comes out this 14 will be gone, I mean the greenbelt will 15 be gone or at least a large portion of 16 it. 17 Given all of the questions that 18 were raised here, environmental, 19 economic, social, public opinion, it 20 seems impossible, I can't imagine how 21 difficult it must be for you all to 22 determine what's in the public interest. 23 It would be a very big challenge I'm 24 sure. 25 But having said that, all of this 215 1 St. John 2 property is private. And for those of 3 us in the community to say we love it, 4 don't touch it, it's not fair. The CPF 5 faces real financial pressures, I can 6 understand that. As do the property 7 owners across the street and all up and 8 down the Route 20 corridor where there 9 is green space. If we as a community 10 think that it's valuable, which I gather 11 we do, just having spoken to so many 12 people, then we need to take this 13 window of opportunity and turn it from 14 a crisis into something we can actually 15 walk away with. Maybe it's a bond that 16 was discussed last week. Maybe it's an 17 assessment. Bigger brains than mine 18 can figure that out. 19 But if we all value it then I would 20 suspect maybe there is the political 21 will in the community now to step up 22 and say we want to be different than 23 Manlius, we want to be different than 24 Fayetteville. We don't want what 25 Skaneateles has as their approach to 216 1 Marsh 2 our community. I just hope that in 3 deciding this and all of the other 4 annexation hearings that are coming up, 5 that we don't react, but we actually 6 start looking forward to possible 7 solutions so that forever and all the 8 generations that we've spoken of can 9 enjoy what we have to enjoy today. 10 Thank you. 11 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: Thank you. 12 WENDY MARSH: Good evening, thank 13 you for this opportunity to hold open 14 the public hearing for an additional 15 time to allow additional comments. And 16 since the law degree was mentioned, I'm 17 Wendy Marsh from Hancock & Estabrook. 18 What I would like to talk about is 19 the procedure. This is a very important 20 decision that is in your control as the 21 elected officials. So what I would 22 like to focus on is the procedure, and 23 I will be submitting a paper on behalf 24 of a number of residents. 25 The first is, both of these boards, 217 1 Marsh 2 both the Village Board and the Town 3 Board have a decision to make with 4 regard to the annexation petition. You 5 have a very important factual determi- 6 nation to make. Is this project in the 7 overall public interest? 8 And there has been discussion, is 9 it an administerial act, meaning that 10 you can't say no if all of the papers 11 are put together properly. And the law 12 was actually changed, someone mentioned 13 that earlier this evening, in the mid 14 '60s to specifically allow the discre- 15 tion for the two boards to determine 16 what is in the public interest. 17 And I would note that although the 18 moratorium does not prohibit the Town 19 Board from doing anything on this 20 petition it does put you on record with 21 regard to the town board's position 22 with regard to development. And I do 23 think it is an important component to 24 consider when you're making that factual 25 determination. 218 1 Marsh 2 And then there's been a discussion, 3 are you supposed to look at the realign- 4 ment solely in making your decision as 5 far as in the overall public interest 6 or the overall project? I think 7 everybody is in agreement you should 8 look at the entire project. That's 9 clearly justification that has been 10 provided by the petitioner in support 11 of the project. In fact if it's just 12 vacant land it's impossible to justify 13 that it's in the public interest to 14 move it from the town into the village. 15 So we're all really talking about the 16 project. And it's described as a 17 conceptual plan. 18 So now that you know that your role 19 is to take a look at the project and 20 decide if it's in the overall public 21 interest how do you get more information 22 to make an informed decision? Everybody 23 is raising a lot of number of very very 24 good issues. And really they should be 25 looked at in the context of SEQR. 219 1 Marsh 2 The law is already there to allow 3 you to gather that information to make 4 an informed decision on the overall 5 process. Before you can, either board 6 can make a decision, you need to comply 7 with SEQR. There was a little bit of 8 discussion about that last time. And 9 this project has been declared a Type 1 10 action under SEQR. 11 And when it's a Type 1 action there 12 is a presumption there is going to be 13 an Environmental Impact Statement 14 process, which means that all of these 15 environmental issues that have been 16 discussed, the traffic, the wetlands, 17 the soil borings, the economic impact, 18 all of those studies are actually part 19 of the SEQR process. And they would be 20 developed, explained, there would be 21 more discussion of the project. Before 22 you would be in this difficult position 23 of trying to make a decision is it in 24 the overall public interest? 25 And really the purpose of SEQR is 220 1 Marsh 2 to gather that information so that you 3 can make an informed decision. And 4 based on the extent of the project, it 5 is a Type 1, you've identified a number 6 of involved agencies at the last 7 meeting including DEC and DOT, 8 Department of Health and a couple of 9 others. And all of those other involved 10 agencies need to consent to the Village 11 Board which I understand wants to be 12 lead agency for SEQR purposes. 13 So once they consent that you are 14 the lead agency we would suggest for 15 this project that you issue a positive 16 declaration. Now, a positive 17 declaration means you get into the 18 Environmental Impact Statement process, 19 where there is an opportunity to gather 20 more information on the plans. I 21 personally take issue whether or not 22 they're conceptual, there is a lot of 23 details there, and require an 24 Environmental Impact Statement. 25 Now, another issue that we've 221 1 Marsh 2 talked about a little bit at the last 3 public hearing is segmentation. And in 4 the SEQR world segmentation is illegal. 5 And segmentation, I'll just describe a 6 little bit of what it is. It's 7 breaking up a project into smaller 8 components so that there is no need for 9 an Environmental Impact Statement. So 10 that you issue what's called a negative 11 declaration - I trust you're familiar 12 with that process - on one small 13 component without looking at the 14 overall project. 15 And there is actually, you will see 16 in the papers here, a case very similar 17 to this situation, where a board looked 18 just at the beginning part of the 19 project as opposed to looking at the 20 impact of the entire development. 21 Now in segmentation there is an 8 22 part test that I attached in here. And 23 I would encourage the Village Board to 24 go through that 8 part test, as far as 25 determining can you really look at the 222 1 Marsh 2 annexation alone or do you have to look 3 at the overall project? And I think it 4 comes down on the side of the overall 5 project. At one end of the spectrum is 6 a wish list. If this was considered a 7 wish list you could look at the 8 annexation alone. It's clearly much 9 farther than a wish list. Especially 10 considering there is much discussion 11 about CPF saying that they've been very 12 involved in this process, very involved 13 in coming up with this plan. And they 14 may very well be comfortable with it. 15 But the SEQR process is to get you, 16 as the deciding board, comfortable with 17 what's in front of you and what the 18 decisions are made. So I would just 19 ask you don't abdicate that responsi- 20 bility saying this is the best plan 21 that's out there and take the opportun- 22 ity to do the Environmental Impact 23 Statement. 24 Now the next question you may ask, 25 you've got a quick time line. You've got 223 1 Marsh 2 ten days to do your public hearing, 3 which is why we're all here tonight. 4 And the law says, under the General 5 Municipal Law, that you need to make a 6 decision within ninety days. I can 7 assure you that the SEQR process cannot 8 be completed in ninety days. 9 So then you say, what do we do in 10 this situation? Well, again, you go 11 back to the SEQR law. The SEQR law 12 specifically says that an application 13 is not complete until the negative 14 declaration is issued or a Draft 15 Environmental Impact Statement is 16 deemed complete. 17 The time frames have not even 18 commenced; it is not a complete petition. 19 So I would argue and I would trust that 20 there would be discussions with your 21 attorneys as well as the petitioner's 22 attorneys on this, because it's an 23 important ninety days. That the 24 application is not deemed complete, you 25 need to complete the SEQR process, by 224 1 Marsh 2 law under SEQR, before you can make a 3 decision. And I would encourage that 4 this issue be vetted between the 5 petitioner and the boards to make sure 6 that everybody is in agreement that the 7 deadlines aren't tolled until after the 8 SEQR process is complete. 9 And you'll see in the documentation 10 that the requirement of preparation of 11 an Environmental Impact Statement is 12 not inconsistent with the petitioner's, 13 CPF's previous assistance. So I would 14 trust that to the extent there is any 15 question on this tolling that they 16 would be agreeable to allow the process 17 to proceed. 18 And just a couple of other points. 19 There was a previous annexation that 20 was subject to litigation previously. 21 And I would note that the Village Board 22 is very aware of this fact. The findings 23 that you make for the annexation will 24 come back to bite you. It will become 25 a situation when next step comes in for 225 1 Misco 2 the zone change there is going to be - 3 your resolution is going to be in front 4 of there saying, you've already made 5 the decision on this project before the 6 zone change application, which is the 7 main reason not to segment the SEQR 8 process. Make sure that you have all 9 of the information before you make the 10 first decision on this overall project. 11 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: Thank you. Is 12 there anybody else who cares to speak? 13 JIM MISCO: My name is Jim Misco, I 14 live at 14 Burr Street. And the mayor 15 has been down to my house a few times 16 to look at our stream, we have a very 17 nice stream that runs through the back 18 yards of all the south side houses on 19 Burr Street. I've had a heron lived 20 there the past week, I've had a doe, a 21 fawn, it's a nice place to live. 22 However, as the mayor is aware over 23 the past twelve years I lived there we 24 probably had four major floods, great 25 loss of property to my neighbors and 226 1 Shepard 2 myself. And I don't believe this 3 project will take care of the flow of 4 water off the proposed project. I 5 think we've had damage, we'll have more 6 damage, and until the village addresses 7 that problem I'd have to say that 8 myself and my neighbors are opposed to 9 this project. Thanks. 10 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: Thank you. 11 Anybody who has not previously spoken 12 who would like to speak? 13 DOUG SHEPARD: Good evening my name 14 is Doug Shepard, I live in the Town of 15 Cazenovia. I'm a native here, born and 16 brought up. I was hoping to see the 17 Master Plan that was going to be 18 developed after the Wal-Mart process we 19 went through. But I don't see that. 20 And I see, I came here open-minded. I 21 haven't petitioned, I've read a lot of 22 stuff. And I really hoped that it 23 would be sort of a team effort and not 24 sided. And I hear a lot of people 25 doing a lot of homework, lot of studies 227 1 Shepard 2 and mentioning the process. 3 It's my opinion that it doesn't 4 seem as though there is enough informa- 5 tion at this point for you guys to make 6 a decision. And I just want that to be 7 heard. I love this town and I keep 8 looking at this picture behind you, and 9 that to me is Cazenovia. One looks 10 west, one looks east. That's where it 11 all started. I'd like to see something 12 similar happen in development. 13 I develop buildings myself, old 14 buildings. We could do something. 15 These people here, professional develop- 16 ers, I think they want to work with us, 17 they're going to spend a lot of money. 18 Be nice if they didn't do the 485 B 19 plan and contribute to our tax base. I 20 think we need to review the process and 21 God bless Cazenovia. 22 SUPERVISOR MORAN: Thank you, Mr. 23 Shepard. Okay, it's all right to clap 24 to that. Mr. Bartlett. You're next 25 Sparky. 228 1 Bartlett 2 TED BARTLETT: My name is Ted 3 Bartlett, 3 Emory here in the village. 4 It's all about the environment. The 5 gentleman that just spoke, the previous 6 people that have been speaking. I've 7 been listening and everybody has been 8 talking about the environment. The 9 environment is not only buildings 10 behind us, it's the green space around 11 the village, it's the commercial area, 12 at the edge of the village. 13 And I was one of the people who was 14 beating the pavement this weekend. The 15 first question was, why is this 16 happening? By most of the people. 17 Second was, we need a new grocery 18 store. And the third was, what about 19 the McKnitt property? 20 We had - but one gentleman sat with 21 me and said, get a piece of paper out. 22 And he said Mr. Stowell's property is 23 adjacent to the McDonald's and adjacent 24 to the Plaza. Everybody in their right 25 mind has always understood that that's 229 1 Bartlett 2 going to be commercial. Nobody ever 3 understood from his property east was 4 going to be commercial. Nobody ever 5 understood that the driveway to this 6 project was going to be where the 7 Enders house is. And he said that's 8 where we, a lot of us who are just 9 plain old folks, feel that we've been 10 betrayed. And that is the message I 11 got when I talked to people. 12 Now the urgency of the P&C is a 13 whole 'nuther issue, but I'm looking at 14 this plan and I'm saying what is the 15 rush? What is the rush to do this? Do 16 we need 65 new houses? Well, there is 17 arguments on both sides but do we 18 actually need them right now? Do we 19 need more commercial development there? 20 As several folks said pick up that 21 new grocery store and drop it in the 22 old plaza and makes things better. But 23 we don't need a new plaza area. So 24 that was the impression that I got from 25 the people that I spoke with. And I 230 1 Bartlett 2 have to say I feel the same. And I 3 would urge everybody here to take it 4 slow, easy and thoughtful because it is 5 the environment, and it's fragile and 6 we in the old preservation world have a 7 saying, once it's gone it's gone. And 8 that's a phrase to remember. 9 And I would like to close with a 10 comment. When I was going to preserva- 11 tion graduate school in Tennessee, 12 Tennessee as they say, I went to a 13 conference, a big work conference in 14 Nashville, sponsored by the National 15 Trust for Historic Preservation. And 16 it was on small town preservation. Not 17 small village preservation, small town. 18 And I was from Western New York, I 19 went to this thing, and lo and behold 20 the keynote speaker was one Sam Stokes 21 and his topic was Cazenovia, New York. 22 1978. And I was flabbergasted. I had 23 never heard of Cazenovia. I lived way 24 out west, there is another Cazenovia by 25 Buffalo. And I came up here and was 231 1 Miller 2 flabbergasted when I saw this community. 3 Little did I know that several years 4 later I'd be living here and standing 5 up and arguing for that same thing. 6 And one of the terms that he used 7 was, is that it leaches away bit by 8 bit, it gets nibbled away. And I see 9 that happening to our village and our 10 town. And a lot of people have fought 11 hard, including CPF in the past, to 12 keep things in place and allow for good 13 productive development. I don't feel 14 in my heart that this is good 15 productive development. Thank you. 16 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: Thank you, Ted. 17 Okay, Sparky. All right, now we're 18 inviting people to speak for the second 19 time, so anybody who has yet to speak I 20 encourage you to make your way to the 21 microphone. Go ahead. 22 LAURA MILLER: And I suspect but 23 I'm hoping someone in the room knows 24 that the rush comes from people wanting 25 to build homes in this area. That's 232 1 Christakos 2 what I suspect. So if we say no to a 3 development like this we don't have 4 meetings for every individual who wants 5 to build a house on a five acre plot. 6 So I think it's worth thinking about. 7 So my question to the room is, is there 8 someone in the room who has a sense of 9 the demand? 10 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: No, address your 11 questions to the board. 12 LAURA MILLER: Is there anyone who 13 knows about the demand for median 14 priced homes in this area in the room? 15 No. Okay. I'm just wondering, thank 16 you. 17 SPARKY CHRISTAKOS: Liz, I'll be 18 brief, okay. 19 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: I'll admonish 20 you if you are not. 21 MR. CHRISTAKOS: I will try. I 22 want to address the - following up on 23 Mr. Judge's point about the school. 24 That's an issue that we heard a lot 25 about. And I want to ask Pioneer how 233 1 Christakos - Norcross 2 they - how they could ask Superintendent 3 Dubik or how they could position 4 Superintendent Dubik that the 65 homes 5 would only have 5 to 10 children in 6 them. 7 MR. NORCROSS: Our initial thought 8 about this residential development was 9 that it would be styled as an empty- 10 nester style community that would not 11 attract families because of the price 12 points, the size of the homes, things 13 of that nature would limit the number 14 of school children that would result 15 from the project like this. 16 MR. CHRISTAKOS: So if I understand 17 it right Mr. Dubik was given the sheet 18 of paper that says that you were going 19 to market to empty-nesters and that 20 your impact, you estimated between 5 21 and 10 children in the whole 65 homes. 22 MR. NORCROSS: That would be the 23 estimate we used, yes. 24 Q. (Christakos) Are you intending to 25 market to only, sell to only a certain 234 1 Christakos - Norcross 2 minimum age? You probably can't do 3 that legally, can you? 4 A. (Norcross) I don't believe we've 5 conducted any studies as to whether 6 this would be age restricted in any way. 7 Q. Are you intending to market to only 8 people that do not live now in the 9 Cazenovia School District? 10 A. I'm not sure I understand your 11 question. 12 Q. Well because I think it's been said 13 that the thought is that if elderly 14 people without children move into this 15 development that it will not affect the 16 school system. Right? 17 A. I think we're suggesting that they 18 are not going to have large families. 19 Q. If an elderly person moves off of 20 Hurd Street into this home, there is an 21 empty house on Hurd Street that could 22 be moved into by a family of five kids. 23 So my question is, are you going to 24 restrict purchases of this development 25 to people that do not live in the 235 1 Christakos 2 school district? Because I believe if 3 you do not restrict it to people that 4 do not live in the school district you 5 can in no possible way say 5 to 10 kids. 6 So I ask you are you going to restrict 7 this? 8 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: Okay, Sparky, 9 keep going. 10 MR. CHRISTAKOS: I guess I made my 11 point. I want to compliment CACC. 12 This is a difficult time. This is a 13 much debated issue and actually there 14 is not much debate. It seems to be 15 pretty one sided. But I want to 16 compliment CACC for stepping forward 17 tonight, wherever they are, because 18 they're being consistent. 19 In April of 2005 CACC wrote to the 20 Village Trustees and the Town Board 21 members. On the CACC Board at that 22 time were - two of the three were Curt 23 Wheeler, who is now absent in his 24 duties here because he's serving our 25 country, but also Bill Hall, the 236 1 Christakos 2 village, I think chairman of the 3 planning board. 4 CACC wrote just 18 months ago, this 5 is very difficult to read in this 6 light. "We suggest that the village 7 declare a subdivision and annexation 8 moratorium to take effect immediately. 9 With a declaration of this moratorium 10 the community will have time to engage 11 itself in a planning process which 12 would culminate in a revised Master 13 Plan, appropriate regulations, growth 14 controls and standards and specifica- 15 tions for development that will protect 16 the community area as a whole." So I 17 compliment CACC for being consistent. 18 On the other hand, I want to read a 19 letter from 17 months ago, in 2005 to 20 Mayor Dougherty and the Village 21 Trustees from the Cazenovia Preservation 22 Foundation. It reads, "Stop 23 development." It continues. "Unless 24 you take responsibility for planning 25 our community every large landowner 237 1 Christakos 2 adjacent to the village boundary may 3 well decide to request annexation 4 before the governments can take any 5 comprehensive planning action." They 6 continue and say to the Village Board, 7 "Only you can call a moratorium and 8 allow standards fair and reasonable for 9 developers and taxpayers to be 10 established." 11 I wish and I think a lot of people 12 wish CPF had been as consistent as 13 CACC. Maybe they still can. 14 I think there is two more things, 15 Liz. I want to echo the comments of 16 other people about the environment. We 17 need to do a complete, if we're going 18 to do anything, if we aren't going to 19 deny this outright we need a complete 20 Environmental Impact Study. This is a 21 huge issue with many, many, many 22 environmental concerns. 23 And I want to also throw out to the 24 community an olive branch. Over the 25 last weekend we've had, tried to have 238 1 Green 2 discussions with Cazenovia Preservation 3 Foundation. We haven't really been 4 able to get together. But we know what 5 theit outstanding, we believe we know 6 what their outstanding balance is in 7 this piece of land. And I would like 8 to commit we have verbal commitments to 9 pay 75 percent of that off. And I 10 think we could raise the rest in a 11 matter of a week to pay off the entire 12 balance that's due on that land. 13 And I'd like to just let CPF know, 14 let the village know and let the town 15 know that I believe that's what 16 Cazenovia would really like. And I 17 would really love to have the chance to 18 try to put that together. Thank you. 19 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: All right, Mr. 20 Green. 21 EDDY GREEN: Eddy Green, East Lake 22 Road. I'd like to just if I may speak 23 to the audience as well as to the table 24 because I'd like people who are here, 25 newcomers to the community and who 239 1 Green 2 perhaps aren't aware of the history of 3 how we got to where we are tonight. If 4 you would like to spend just a couple 5 of minutes with me to hear the story. 6 First of all, from my own 7 credentials, I was one of the founding 8 members with Dorothy Riester and also 9 other members in the community for the 10 stone quarry yard park. 11 Secondly, I'm a former board member 12 of CPF, former chairman of the board, 13 and I worked the Land Planning Commis- 14 sion, the Land Use Committee of the CPF 15 for the last 15 to 20 years. Since 16 that time they bought innumberable 17 properties where they put away the 18 property rights for the benefit of the 19 community and sold off properties that 20 they had acquired, that they put many 21 new trails together for our linkage in 22 this area, the whole wonderful trail 23 committee that now exists. 24 And CPF and the Land Use Committee 25 has done a wonderful job in preserving 240 1 Green 2 and protecting what this community is 3 all about. 4 This community to me is an 5 obsession, I love it that much. And 6 I'm sure all of you do too and that's 7 why you're here tonight to protest this 8 rapid growth or unreasonable growth as 9 you see it. 10 But let me point out to you what 11 happened in 1997 or '8, when Wal-Mart 12 was trying to come here with a 500,000 13 foot imprint and including the parking. 14 And 110,000 square foot project. After 15 they were sent away, hopefully for a 16 permanent away, we were afraid that 17 perhaps BJs or Lowe's or Home Depot 18 might come next and try and do the same 19 thing. So the question was, well what 20 do you do then with these continuing, 21 ongoing projects that are just going to 22 destroy the community, which we didn't 23 want to have happen. 24 So we got a committee together and 25 raised the money, 700 some odd thousand 241 1 Green 2 dollars to buy the property. Figuring 3 at the time that perhaps we would never 4 have to develop it or in any way maybe 5 keep it forever green. Then what 6 happened was that Franklin Museum came 7 along about four or five years ago and 8 they wanted to build their Franklin 9 Museum here, as you recall, on this 10 site. 11 The community got together, CPF 12 people, and I heard no complaints from 13 anybody during that whole process when 14 the Franklin Museum was negotiating 15 with CPF. The Museum people decided 16 not to buy our property. They went 17 elsewhere, thank God. And then their 18 deal collapsed, so there is no Franklin 19 Museum coming. 20 But meanwhile the ongoing process 21 for what to do with some of this 22 property existed because of the mortgage 23 obligation that we had. And the desire 24 to have what the Wal-Mart group called 25 the Committee for Responsible Growth. 242 1 Green 2 What did that mean? Nobody has really 3 defined it. So I really challenge the 4 two boards tonight to define perhaps 5 what responsible growth is and to see 6 if this project meets that standard. 7 The question is, you know, what do 8 you do if you're on a committee and 9 you've got a mortgage and you've got 10 people contributing to the payoff of 11 that mortgage for seven years and you 12 have a group like Pioneer, who does 13 very responsible work and very 14 sensitive with a great sensibility 15 about the communities they're in, and 16 you trust them, I mean I trust them, I 17 really do. Yet I want to preserve and 18 protect just the same things you want 19 to preserve and protect. 20 So what we're here to find out 21 tonight, is this an idea with responsible 22 growth attached to it? Does it define 23 what that standard means, this project? 24 I don't have an answer for that. But 25 I'm willing to give them a chance to 243 1 Green 2 show it and let them take the next step. 3 If annexation is the first step that 4 doesn't solve anything for them. 5 They've got to come before you for many 6 subsequent hearings and have you decide 7 at that point in time whether or not 8 this is responsible growth and is 9 something you want. 10 So I leave it undecided in my own 11 mind, but at least -- so you'll have 12 the list of all of this to know how we 13 got here. This is not out of spite or 14 ill will this CPF bringing this project 15 to you, they care about this community 16 as anybody. They've been your 17 protectors for 30 or 40 or 50 years and 18 they will continue to be. They aren't 19 here in any way to do ill will for the 20 community. Just know that. So that's 21 what I wanted to say tonight, thank you. 22 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: Thank you, Ed. 23 Okay, I'm going to look to this side of 24 the room. Raise your hand if you would 25 care to speak, please. Okay, anybody 244 1 Hartt & King 2 on this side of the room? Anybody over 3 here? Good, the hour is getting late. 4 ANNE HARTT BARBEY: On that -- 5 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: No, come up to 6 the microphone. 7 ANNE HARTT BARBEY: My voice is 8 loud. Would it be possible to ask 9 people to stand if they are in favor 10 and then others to stand if they are 11 opposed to the annexation? 12 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: No. 13 ANNE HARTT BARBEY: What a pity. 14 SUPERVISOR MORAN: Not a popularity. 15 Okay, anybody else? Okay, Mr. King. 16 PETER KING: Good evening, my name 17 is Peter King, I don't live in 18 Cazenovia presently, I'm a student at 19 the College of Environmental Science 20 and Forestry in Syracuse. I come from 21 a family that lives on Albany Street so 22 I'm visiting my brother this evening. 23 And I've heard a little bit about this, 24 so I'm not terribly up to date with it 25 but I'm kind of concerned about the 245 1 King 2 proposal tonight to annex. 3 I think it's something that really 4 should be studied carefully, and I'm 5 really more in the favor of large scale 6 planning as opposed to making a lot of 7 small decisions that you really don't 8 know how those decisions might weigh in 9 somewhere else. 10 And the last thing I might say is 11 that someone has done studies of all 12 the freshets and springs up there and 13 all the water flows, but I don't think 14 it really matters what those studies 15 say because in ten years time all that 16 could change and you could have an 17 entire different set of freshets and 18 springs and what not. And I don't 19 really know about the plumbing up there 20 and it's that kind of thing gets 21 variable. 22 One important thing to think about 23 might be that aquifers take thousands 24 of years to recharge as opposed to just 25 groundwater which passes in a day or 246 1 Process 2 so. So it's something kind of serious 3 I guess. But that would be all I have 4 to say. 5 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: Thank you. 6 CLAUDIA ST. JOHN: Could you 7 explain the process what happens after 8 we close this evening and will there be 9 other comment periods? 10 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: I'm going to 11 start this and then pass it over to 12 John Langey to finish this. Tonight 13 the annexation hearing will close. 14 Then each board has ninety days to make 15 a determination. However, I think we 16 are going to be asking our attorneys to 17 advise us regarding the SEQR process. 18 If the positive declaration has 19 been issued or no, it has not but we're 20 still in discussion about the positive 21 declaration and the need for an 22 Environmental Impact Statement and how 23 that affects the processes, the whole 24 timetable is something that we're going 25 to ask our counsel to look at. 247 1 Conor 2 CLAUDIA ST. JOHN: And about the 3 other public comment period. 4 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: That's correct 5 there is a public comment period 6 associated with SEQR. And then again, 7 as I stated at the opening of tonight's 8 continuation of the hearing there will 9 be a public comment period associated 10 with any zone change or site plan 11 review or you know, if the project 12 moves forward. Rob? 13 ROB CONNOR: Just a question maybe 14 Mr. Langey knows. I don't know that 15 the board has an obligation to have a 16 public hearing if they get into SEQR. 17 I know there is a public comment period 18 but is there a -- is it optional? 19 MR. LANGEY: It's optional under 20 SEQR. 21 ROB CONNOR: I just go on the 22 record asking the board to look 23 favorably having a public hearing as 24 contingent of SEQR. 25 MAYOR DOUGHERTY: I was just going 248 1 Mayor 2 to review a little bit of what the 3 Village Board is going to do after we 4 close this hearing. We're going to add 5 this proposed annexation to our agenda 6 for our December 4th Village Board 7 meeting. During that time or between 8 now and then all our board members are 9 going to be reviewing all the informa- 10 tion that's been presented at these two 11 public hearings. 12 We're going to be reviewing the 13 Environmental Assessment form that was 14 submitted by the Petitioners. We also 15 will be filling out Part 2 of the form. 16 And that Part 2 is where we evaluate 17 project impacts. During that review if 18 we have any impact that we say in our 19 judgment are - what's the word, large 20 impacts, then if that's the case then 21 we will eventually ask the Petitioners 22 to start - then we would have a 23 positive declaration. And then the 24 Petitioner would need to fill out a 25 Draft Environmental Impact form or 249 1 Mayor & Attorney 2 Statement. 3 That process like we have talked 4 about earlier will take quite a long, 5 lengthy time frame. During that time 6 our attorneys feel quite sure that we 7 will be able to extend our ninety day 8 period until the point in time that the 9 SEQR process is finished. Does that 10 sound right to you, John? And Mark? 11 MR. LANGEY: The analysis on the 12 ninety days and how SEQR plays out in 13 that is something that Jim and I have 14 been talking about since last week. So 15 we haven't made a final recommendation 16 to anybody yet but we are analyzing it. 17 MAYOR DOUGHERTY: That will be the 18 process that the Village Board will be 19 following, and we will be sharing this 20 information with the Town Board during 21 that process. 22 ROGER DEMUTH: Will this action 23 require a super majority vote? 24 ATTORNEY LANGEY: I can answer 25 that. The way the statute reads is you 250 1 Mayor & Attorney 2 need a simple majority of the fully 3 constituted board, Town Board, and the 4 fully constituted board for the Village 5 Board of Trustees, so the majority, 6 both five person boards, so three per 7 each particular board. Won't be a 8 total of ten, it will be three from 9 each and three from the other. 10 ROGER DEMUTH: Because there is so 11 much concern from the community as 12 there was on the Cocomeyer property 13 that required a super majority vote. 14 MR. LANGEY: That's a special 15 section for zone changes under the Town 16 Law that requires the super majority. 17 That's a different law than the law 18 that these two boards are dealing with 19 tonight. 20 ROGER DEMUTH: Could we use that law? 21 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: Okay, I'm going 22 to ask for any last comments before we 23 close. 24 MS. KANE: Good evening, my name is 25 Mano Kane (phonetic), I live on 32 251 1 Kane & Underriiher 2 Albany Street. I know you're tired, 3 it's been a long evening but I just 4 wanted to share a little comment with 5 you. I have been to a few annexation 6 discussions like this, and every single 7 time the developer says that the 8 development is aiming towards 9 empty-nesters every single time. Must 10 have been four times in the last four 11 years in the village. 12 I find that interesting. Are we 13 turning into a Florida retirement 14 community? Or are we kidding ourselves? 15 Are the developers kidding themselves 16 and are we going to have to look at 17 expanding our school system? I have 18 four children and I'm paying very high 19 school taxes, so I was wondering if 20 other members here in the village and 21 town would be interested in that issue. 22 Thank you. 23 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: Thank you. Next. 24 LARRY UNDERRINER: I'm Larry 25 Underriner, I live in the town of 252 1 Underriner 2 Cazenovia. And I've been here at both 3 of these meetings and I've got to go 4 forward putting this out to all these 5 people and taking all the heat as you 6 do. With that in mind I walked out of 7 here last week and I thought to myself 8 you know, there is a lot of dissention 9 about this whole deal. And we're being 10 public representatives, you are elected 11 by the public, I feel you should keep 12 that in mind when making this decision 13 being that you represent the public. 14 We're seeing a lot of viewpoints, 15 well mostly one viewpoint, but I think 16 that basing your decision, you are 17 representatives of the people, you 18 should vote according to how the people 19 feel. And that's about all I have to 20 say right now, thank you. 21 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: Thank you. 22 TED BARTLETT: I would like to 23 thank the mayor and both boards for 24 extending this hearing tonight and 25 allowing everyone to come forward and 253 1 Underriner 2 express their opinion, thank you. 3 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: Anybody else? 4 Thank you. All right I need a motion 5 then to close the public hearing. 6 COUNCILOR SCHOCH: I will make the 7 motion that we close the public hearing. 8 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: Thank you, 9 Carol. Do we have a second? 10 TRUSTEE VREDENBURGH: Second. 11 CHAIRWOMAN MORAN: Second from Dave. 12 All in favor? (All responded aye). Now 13 how about a motion to adjourn? 14 COUNCILOR SCHOCH: So move. 15 MAYOR DOUGHERTY: I'll second that. 16 * * * * 17 C E R T I F I C A T E 18 This is to certify that I am a Certified Shorthand Reporter and Notary 19 Public in and for the State of New York, that I attended and reported the 20 above entitled proceedings, that I have compared the foregoing with my original 21 minutes taken therein and that it is a true and correct transcript thereof and 22 all of the proceedings had therein. 23 _______________________ John F. Drury, CSR, RPR 24 25 Dated: November 27, 2006